Gun Laws

[Lt.Gen.xXHeAdShOtXx]

Hey guys,
The mass shooting that happened recently in Oregon gave me the idea of asking what people's opinions are on such shootings and how they are supposed to be stopped. Living in Australia, gun laws are very tight and it's quite difficult to obtain a gun if you're not a farmer or work in security-type work. Gun laws were drastically changed in Australia in 1996 when 35 people were killed in a shooting, since then there's been close to nothing of the sort happen again. I know that guns are quite embedded into American culture and I would assume that most people may be opposed to implementing strict laws as a result but what do you think? Just my opinion on the matter, what are yours?

I know I shouldn't have to say this but this is a mature conversation of course, keep it friendly

-Headshot

[Gen.Jersey]

I am a very strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment. A lot of people think that because it states, "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people can bear arms shall not be infringed", that the right to own firearms is a collective right (not an individual right) and subject to strict limitations ("well-regulated"). But they completely misinterpret it because they are reading it in modern English. In written English contemporary to the penning of the Bill of Rights, "well-regulated" does not mean regulations restricting and limiting access, it means "being in proper working order". Back then, you would commonly hear and read phrases such as a "well-regulated clock" (a clock that keeps good time) or a "well-regulated mind" (an intelligent person). And "militia" means the people. Actually, back then it meant all able-bodied male adults, but of course today that would include both men and women.

The phrasing of the 2nd Amendment also confuses people, because it is a sentence structure that is rarely used nowadays. The first part, "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" is a prefatory clause, while the second part, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is an operative clause. Prefatory clauses do not limit the scope of their operative clauses, they merely announce a purpose and provide a justification for the operative clause.

Rewritten in modern English, the 2nd Amendment would be something along the lines of, "Firearms in the hands of ordinary citizens is vital to maintain a free society, therefore the right of the people to keep and bear their own arms must not be infringed". What the Founding Fathers meant when they wrote the 2nd Amendment is clearly spelled out in their contemporary writings such as the Federalist Papers.

I strongly believe that firearm laws should be loosened. Over the past 25 years or so, many states (starting with Florida) enacted "shall-issue" concealed carry permits. What this means is that as long as the applicant meets the requirements described by law (21 years or older, no felony convictions, no restraining orders, no misdemeanor domestic violence convictions, no severe mental illness, no illegal drug use, etc.), a permit to carry a concealed handgun must be issued. Gun control activists said the streets would be awash with blood, that people would kill over parking spaces, and basically all hell would break loose. But it didn't happen in Florida, and it didn't happen in any of the now 45 states with "shall-issue" concealed carry permitting. In fact, the opposite happened -- violent crime rates went down in every one of the 45 states that enacted "shall-issue" concealed carry legislation, most of which went down significantly below the national average.

On the other hand, there has been no gun control law passed in the United States that has been proven to reduce gun violence.

Yes, there are many gun homicides in the United States (11,208 in 2014). But many more lives are saved by guns. Even the lowest estimates (those calculated by some of the groups trying to push strict gun control) peg defensive gun uses at 100,000 - 200,000 per year. The highest estimates are 2,000,000 - 2,500,000 per year. But even if we use the low end 200,000 number, that means that 18 people were protected by a gun for every one person murdered by a gun.

And there are so many guns in the United States that it would be impossible to round up even a small percentage of them if an Australia or United Kingdom style gun ban were passed tomorrow. Even when other countries did not have strict gun laws like they do now, they had extremely low rates of gun ownership compared to the United States.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no obligation to protect you. And in many parts of the country, if you call the police, they will take 30 - 60 minutes (or even more) to respond. Even in densely-populated areas, response times tend to average around 5 - 10 minutes. That's a very long time to fight back someone who is attacking you. I keep loaded firearms secured but easily accessible (biometric locks) in my home. I also can legally carry a firearm in public in 33 states, and do so when in any of those states. I do this because I understand that the police may not be able to protect me.

I pray that I never have to actually use it, but if my life is in severe and imminent danger, I won't hesitate to act. I train regularly (much more often than the local police). So when I hear people who want to take away my best chances of defending myself against a violent criminal, I understandably get angry.

[Lt.Gen.xXHeAdShOtXx]

And there are so many guns in the United States that it would be impossible to round up even a small percentage of them if an Australia or United Kingdom style gun ban were passed tomorrow. Even when other countries did not have strict gun laws like they do now, they had extremely low rates of gun ownership compared to the United States.

That's a very good point, it would be very difficult to implement such law with the ever-growing amount of guns.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no obligation to protect you. And in many parts of the country, if you call the police, they will take 30 - 60 minutes (or even more) to respond. Even in densely-populated areas, response times tend to average around 5 - 10 minutes. That's a very long time to fight back someone who is attacking you. I keep loaded firearms secured but easily accessible (biometric locks) in my home. I also can legally carry a firearm in public in 33 states, and do so when in any of those states. I do this because I understand that the police may not be able to protect me.

I pray that I never have to actually use it, but if my life is in severe and imminent danger, I won't hesitate to act. I train regularly (much more often than the local police). So when I hear people who want to take away my best chances of defending myself against a violent criminal, I understandably get angry.

I understand that and it makes sense but is that a mentality that kids growing up should have? Yes, someone defending themselves could benefit from using a firearm but the mentality of resulting to the use of a gun as a means of defense can go very wrong. Although, I do understand in some circumstances it's necessary to use one to save someone's life. The way I see it, violence breeds violence; retaliating to violence with guns and putting guns in people's hands isn't really going to help the overall issue of gun violence progress.

[Pvt.MrBlo0]

I understand that and it makes sense but is that a mentality that kids growing up should have? Yes, someone defending themselves could benefit from using a firearm but the mentality of resulting to the use of a gun as a means of defense can go very wrong. Although, I do understand in some circumstances it's necessary to use one to save someone's life. The way I see it, violence breeds violence; retaliating to violence with guns and putting guns in people's hands isn't really going to help the overall issue of gun violence progress.

I've thought about this a lot. I'm also a supporter of the 2nd Amendment and own several firearms. I didn't grow up hunting and was always curious on how do families that do, explain to their kids about how to value life and hunt at the same time. A friend of mine explained to me that when they hunt, they don't go out and shoot 100 holes into an animal for fun. They give it a painless, quick death and use every part of the animal out of respect. So there is a responsibility to teach kids the correct mentality. A firearm should never be used unless you or others are in life and death situation.

About your statement on violence breeds violence... How do you propose to defend yourself? What will the police do when they come? Shoot the guy. A firearm at the end of the day is just a tool. You can defend yourself with a knife, a hammer, or whatever object. But none of those objects are as great as an equalizer if you are overpowered. An old adage is "God created man, and Colt made them equal."

Another point to keep in mind is that law breakers/criminals will always have guns regardless of what the laws are. Any regulations fall on law abiding citizens.

[Maj.Gen.Franks & Beans]

I wholeheartedly agree with Gen Jersey's views. I come from probably the most restrictive and anti-gun state of Illinois and I've been shooting for close to 35+ years. I've been hunting since I was a kid and I shoot competitively. I am a responsible gun owner and have been for many years. The anti-gun sentiment across the world calling the U.S. "Cowboys" truly drives me nuts. We have a constitution that allows us certain rights and no matter what laws are enacted, criminals will still be criminals. The sad school shootings are definitely a tragedy and yet, there are more people shot every day in Chicago.

My wife and my kids shoot and are well prepared to defend themselves God forbid that situation ever arises.

[Jistuason]

An American can't carry a sword openly, but a M16 can be carried. Why is that, and why aren't Americans fighting for the right to open carry swords?


_____________________
wooden samurai swords

[Maj.Gen.Greenwood (SRO)]

Being in the Military I love guns.

I have an AR15 in my closet.

9mm on my desk

Hunting rifle above my door.

[Capt.DoctorT]

Jersey, just wanted to Thank You for an extremely well voiced opinion. I could not of said it better.

[Lt.Gen.xXHeAdShOtXx]

It was tragic hearing about the mass shooting in Orlando, it's been on news all around Australia this morning and last night.

I understand this is a primarily American clan and its an unpopular view (not in Australia and the UK) but having stricter gun laws may have saved 50 lives. How many mass shootings need to happen before people realise this? If this doesn't show the US that its gun laws are lax, then nothing will. It's legal to buy an AR15 rifle, but it is illegal for a gay man to donate blood to the victims. What a world we live in. The saddest part of it all is, at the end of the day nothing will be done. And unfortunately, it will happen again, and who knows how many casualties there will be next time.

I took the time to make a list of public mass shootings since strict laws came in '96 in Australia:

Those people in Orlando and their families are in my prayers.

[Capt.DoctorT]

I know gun violence has gone down in Australia since the ban, but violence in other respects has increased over 304%, especially rape and such, so I have my guns, as do my wife and children and we practice a lot, but hopefully we will never need them, but better safe than DEAD...